Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Discuss working with MultitrackStudio for iPad
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papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

I hope I'm doing something wrong and that someone can help me out: I'm surprised that I'm not able to monitor an external synth that is playing back a MIDI sequence from MTS *without* recording the external synth. Here are the details:

1. Set up MTS so that it receives both MIDI and audio from an external synth (you'll need at least two tracks, an Audio Track, so that you can listen to the audio, and a MIDI Track, so that you can record the MIDI).

2. Play your external synth and record the MIDI and/or Audio in MTS.

3. Listen to your performance and realize you suck and need to edit part of the MIDI sequence that you just recorded. :)

Now is where the problem starts: it seems that you can't play back the MIDI sequence in MTS and monitor the audio from the external synth without recording the audio. Please tell me I'm wrong! Maybe I just have the monitoring options set incorrectly (but I don't think so).

If it turns out that it's not possible to play MIDI from MTS to an external synth and just monitor the audio from the external synth in MTS without recording the audio, please consider modifying the monitoring options in MTS (a la Live, Cubase, etc.) to provide the option to monitor an external synth without recording it.

Thanks in advance, Mr. Bremmers. I look forward to hearing from you.
KenHardy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by KenHardy »

No doubt Giel will personally respond to your query, but you'll notice I've posted similar MIDI-related questions regarding use of my own external MIDI instruments with MTS for iPad. You must first remember that it is the sound generator of your MIDI instrument which is generating audio....not MTS itself (unless you're using MTS's on-board general midi or soundfont sound generators). From the perspective of the iPad itself, audio into an MTS track can only be monitored when "track record" is on and the "Monitor" button is activated. Thus to monitor your keyboard's audio output in response to MIDI OUT signals during playback from MTS, you have several options:

The easiest is to use headphones attached directly to your keyboard. However if you do this, you will not be able to monitor anything else being played back from other MTS TRACKS. Also, per my most recent post, keep in mind that during "punch-in" recording of MIDI from your external MIDI instrument, MIDI OUT from MTS's MIDI TRACK will be muted, until you reach the punch-in point. Thus, there will be no MIDI output from MTS to drive any audio into your earphones as you play along prior to the punch-in point.

Option two (my approach) is to add an external mixer to your recording rig (I use a small, inexpensive 8 channel Peavey mixer). The stereo output from your iPad's headphone jack (or from your digital interface) is inputted into two channels of your mixer, and the stero output from your keyboard is inputted into two other channels of your mixer. Thus, all the recorded audio tracks from MTS, as well as the MIDI driven audio output of your external keyboard can be mixed down simultaneously and monitored from the headphone (or powered speaker monitor) output of your mixer. For most monitoring purposes this works quite nicely, but the punch-in limitations discussed above will still remain.

Option three (which is what you seem to be doing) is to use an audio feed from your ext. keyboard and input it to your iPad through your digital interface (I use a cheap Griffin Studio Connect interface). Generally the MIDI-driven audio output of the ext. keyboard during playback can be directly monitored from the headphone jack of the interface device without the audio track being put in "record" mode. Alternatively, the audio can be monitored from the headphone jack of the iPad (but only as you've noted, if track "record" and track "monitor" are activated and Midi playback is begun. Once playback begins, the Midi output will drive the ext. instrument's audio output which will be then be track inputted in MTS, and both recorded and output monitored in real time through the iPad headphone jack. Again, however, the MIDI Out muting issue will occur if punch-in recording is used.......a serious current limitation in the MTS program that I have commented on and asked Giel to address.

The only workaround to the punch in issue (as discussed in my recent posts) is to use MTS's resident sound generating tools, during which MIDI punch-in with full punch-in/out earphone monitoring works perfectly. Those internal sounds can be used as needed to get the tempo and notation of your MIDI files musically correct. Afterwards simply playback the edited Midi track from MTS into your external keyboard and simultaneously record your keyboard's audio output as a new audio track in MTS (to get the exact ext. Instrument sound you initially desired). I own multiple pro level synths, players, workstations, samplers, and sound generators, and so I don't really need to use any of the many readily available MTS-linked sound generators. It is quite easy to record external audio direct to MTS, but much more more technically challenging when recording MIDI for playback through ext. instruments. However the clear advantages of MIDI over audio recording with regard to post-production editing still makes the latter approach very attractive especially to more technically challenged musicians like myself.
Support
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by Support »

papertiger wrote:I'm surprised that I'm not able to monitor an external synth that is playing back a MIDI sequence from MTS *without* recording the external synth.
You're using Audiobus, right?
This doesn't work as expected indeed.

In iOS 8 it doesn't work because of a 'clever' iOS 8-only optimization in MultitrackStudio.
In iOS 7 it doesn't work most of the time because Audiobus somehow refuses to do the monitoring when I ask it to.

I'm working on this right now.

For now it's probably best to use a dummy audio track to record the AB input. Alternatively you can remove the synth app from the AB input box, but then the app loses the AB transport buttons.



Giel Bremmers
KenHardy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by KenHardy »

Giel's comments, as usual, are well taken. I'm somewhat old school and don't use AudioBus (check out all the current AudioBus forum hysteria related to iOS 7 and 8 incompatibilities.....including its quirks in MTS for iPad as Giel mentioned). Just another cut- and paste- bypass option as far as I'm concerned, and not at all necessary to make good music if your external MIDI instruments are high quality. With or without AB the minor inconvenience to external midi instrument monitoring during recording currently seems to be the same. Use of dummy tracks and/or temporary substitute instrument sounds are workable solutions until Giel irons out the kinks.

Check out my copy of the Bee Gee's song "To Love Somebody" http://soundcloud.com/drdrdaddeo/to-lov ... al/s-KxoTn . All of the multiple orchestral instrument parts were played by hand (by ear), and recorded by me from one Keyboard (a Kurzweil Pc1x), one track at a time direct to MTS....and AudioBus was not used. I am also in final phases of recording a new original song, "Oh Daughter" which is full MIDI-driven (because of the very fast and technically difficult keyboard passages). I'm using one of MTS's extremely nice sounding general midi electric grand keyboard sounds to substitute for the Yamaha CP-80 that I plan to use in the final mix (and it sounds so damn good I may never actually record the CP-80). Again, no AudioBus or AB-related iOS problems....just my handy-dandy iPad Air, Studio Connect interface, peavey mixer, MTS for iPad, and pro-instrument combo.....I'm loving it!!
Dr. K.
papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

Support wrote:
papertiger wrote:I'm surprised that I'm not able to monitor an external synth that is playing back a MIDI sequence from MTS *without* recording the external synth.
You're using Audiobus, right?
This doesn't work as expected indeed.

In iOS 8 it doesn't work because of a 'clever' iOS 8-only optimization in MultitrackStudio.
In iOS 7 it doesn't work most of the time because Audiobus somehow refuses to do the monitoring when I ask it to.

I'm working on this right now.

For now it's probably best to use a dummy audio track to record the AB input. Alternatively you can remove the synth app from the AB input box, but then the app loses the AB transport buttons.

Giel Bremmers
Mr. Bremmers,

Sorry -- I should have been more explicit.

I am not using Audiobus. I have my iPad 4 connected to a hardware synth (Virus). The Virus audio and MIDI connections are through an Apogee Duet. I am on iOS 7.1.2.

Please let me know if there are specific things you would like me to try, but it sounds like you're aware that monitoring doesn't work as expected, or as it "should." I can help with beta builds if you want some assistance.

M
papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

@KenHardy Wow, thank you for your extensive response. I did monitor through the hardware synth at one point, but that doesn't work as then I can't hear all of the other parts I've recorded into MTS. In addition, adding a mixer would defeat the purpose of having everything being as compact as possible (iPad, synth, soundcard).

It sounds like Mr. Bremmers is working on the issues, so hopefully he'll figure it out (and we can help him!).

M

PS In the future, you might want to try inserting hard returns into your posts on this forum. The lack of paragraph breaks makes your posts very difficult to read, which is a shame since they have good information in them!
Support
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by Support »

papertiger wrote:I am not using Audiobus. I have my iPad 4 connected to a hardware synth (Virus). The Virus audio and MIDI connections are through an Apogee Duet.
Ah, that's an entirely different issue :-)

Can't you use this to control the Duet's direct monitoring feature?
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/maestro

Giel Bremmers
papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

Support wrote:
papertiger wrote:I am not using Audiobus. I have my iPad 4 connected to a hardware synth (Virus). The Virus audio and MIDI connections are through an Apogee Duet.
Ah, that's an entirely different issue :-)

Can't you use this to control the Duet's direct monitoring feature?
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/maestro

Giel Bremmers
That occurred to me yesterday when I was (sadly) AFV (away from virus...). I will try and fool around with those settings tonight, but I'm not sure it's the solution. Hopefully i'm wrong! =)
KenHardy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by KenHardy »

Sorry about the hard returns, our screen views were probably differentt...I've gone back in an edited my comments per your excellent suggestion. You're clearly in the same boat as me on the MIDI/audio monitoring issue....I suspected all along that you weren't using AudioBus. Unless you've got a headphone out jack on the Duet, I doubt it's going to be the solution. However, I'm delighted you've engaged Giel on the issue. He always comes up with clever solutions...and the more of us that dog him, the more clever he becomes. Dr. K.
papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

KenHardy wrote:Sorry about the hard returns, our screen views are probably different. You're clearly in the same boat as me on the MIDI/audio monitoring issue....I suspected all along that you weren't using AudioBus. Unless you've got a headphone out jack on the Duet, I doubt it's going to be the solution. And I'm delighted you've engaged Giel on the issue. He always comes up with clever solutions...and the more of us that dog him, the more clever he becomes. Dr. K.
I had figured we were in the same boat as well when I saw you mentioned Kurzweils and other external synths. OLD SKOOL! =) I love the iOS synths because I can carry a badass studio with me when I'm on the go, but my goodness, sometimes there are so many headaches interconnecting the apps that I end up reading a mystery novel on my iPad instead. =)

I believe in Mr. Bremmers and actually have confidence that he'll think of something (which I can't say for all developers). He seems very dedicated. I'm trying to remember how Cubasis handles the issue. I don't know that I've ever tried to use it with a hardware synth...

M
KenHardy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by KenHardy »

The Griffin Studio Connect doesn't have a USB input, so I can't use my USB keyboard to drive any internal sounds linked to MTS. The new Alesis iO Dock II would probably work well for your external hardware purposes, but it also lacks a USB input, so it can't be used with USB keyboard controllers either. Griffin is "supposed" to be coming out with the StudioConnect HD interface which would solve all problems (if it ever released). It has USB in/out, XLR/1/4 inch inputs with phantom power, 5 pin MIDI in/outs, and headphone direct input monitoring. I've been waiting for months to get one, but no word on a release date since 1/2013. Plus the Griffin interfaces (which are built in China) are notoriously quirky (I'm about to exchange my second unit). While I've been waiting on Giel, Apple, Alesis, Griffin, and others to really bring the iOS based multitrack recording systems to mainstream musicians, I've just invested in my little peavey mixer (~$100). It allows me to do in my bedroom, pretty much everything I used to do in my 8-track analog recording studio.....and it continues to get better. Even my Mac based recording collaborators are now beginning to use iPads/notepads for mobile and studio based multitrack recording. It is clearly the direction of the future if the computer, software, hardware and music industries can all learn to speak the same language. Dr. K.
KenHardy
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by KenHardy »

Hiya M,

Wow. I didn't realize the Apogee duet was such a killer interface until I just read up on it. Seems it aleady does everything the "shadowy" Griffin StudioConnect HD promises to do (unfortunately at three times the projected price). I own and routinely use the Apogee MiC in my studio (which blows most of my other studio mics away). If you've purchased and are working with the Duet, then you're probably already ahead of most of us on the iOS system learning curve anyhow. It seems that the Duet does indeed have a stereo headphone jack, as well as fairly sophisticated iOS based software to optimize its function. Where you ever able to get the ext. Instrument MIDI monitoring issue resolved with the Duet/MTS combo? Apogee is Apple-approved, heavy into iOS and Mac based recording R&D, very consumer responsive, miles ahead of everyone else, and clearly a pro-level outfit. I would expect that they will set the bar for excellence in this arena and look forward to the expansion of their product line. I find it sad that their promo videos show the Duet being used with Auria (which doesn't support MIDI at all). I really hope Giel takes you up on your offer to beta test your Duet with MTS. To my knowledge you're the first MTS user on this forum to own one.....and unless Alesis, Griffin, and FocusRite wake up, Apogee is clearly going to be the direction of the future with regard to iPad abased recording systems. Dr. K.
papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

KenHardy wrote:Hiya M,

Wow. I didn't realize the Apogee duet was such a killer interface until I just read up on it. Seems it aleady does everything the "shadowy" Griffin StudioConnect HD promises to do (unfortunately at three times the projected price). I own and routinely use the Apogee MiC in my studio (which blows most of my other studio mics away). If you've purchased and are working with the Duet, then you're probably already ahead of most of us on the iOS system learning curve anyhow. It seems that the Duet does indeed have a stereo headphone jack, as well as fairly sophisticated iOS based software to optimize its function. Where you ever able to get the ext. Instrument MIDI monitoring issue resolved with the Duet/MTS combo? Apogee is Apple-approved, heavy into iOS and Mac based recording R&D, very consumer responsive, miles ahead of everyone else, and clearly a pro-level outfit. I would expect that they will set the bar for excellence in this arena and look forward to the expansion of their product line. I find it sad that their promo videos show the Duet being used with Auria (which doesn't support MIDI at all). I really hope Giel takes you up on your offer to beta test your Duet with MTS. To my knowledge you're the first MTS user on this forum to own one.....and unless Alesis, Griffin, and FocusRite wake up, Apogee is clearly going to be the direction of the future with regard to iPad abased recording systems. Dr. K.
Dr. K,

Sorry for the delayed response! Sadly, I've not had the chance to check things out with the Duet again, but you can bet I will as soon as I have the chance. I don't think my issue has anything to do with the monitoring settings on the Duet, but I could be wrong. I think it's a function of how monitoring in MTS works at the moment.

One thing I've learned is that when it comes to audio interfaces, you get what you pay for, which is why I went with the Apogee. I've significantly reduced my "studio"/workspace (I'm getting married soon!) and tried to make it as compact as possible. The Duet is versatile and has excellent converters, so I decided to take the leap and haven't been disappointed that I did.

M
Support
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Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by Support »

papertiger wrote:I don't think my issue has anything to do with the monitoring settings on the Duet, but I could be wrong.
I think you're wrong :wink:


Giel Bremmers
papertiger
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:50 pm

Re: Playing back MIDI and monitoring external synth

Post by papertiger »

Support wrote:
papertiger wrote:I don't think my issue has anything to do with the monitoring settings on the Duet, but I could be wrong.
I think you're wrong :wink:


Giel Bremmers
Lol -- challenge accepted! Hopefully I will get some time this weekend. I do HOPE that I am wrong. Ah, how I love to be wrong... :mrgreen:
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