Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

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MisplacedDevelopment
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:40 am

Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by MisplacedDevelopment »

MTS by default sends a number of MIDI CC messages to audio units when it starts playing, even if the user has not specifically set these. I have seen this cause some issues in the past with synths sounding differently in MTS - I recall one in particular was picking up the Brightness setting which modified the sound of a preset when compared to the same audio unit loaded in other hosts. Possibly related is that MIDI exported by MTS has five extra lanes of controller data included (incl Brightness set to 64 and Volume) which I have to manually remove before it can be used elsewhere.

I'm now trying to use GeoShred more inside MTS and after some amount of head-scratching, I realised that MTS sending Poly mode on (CC 127) causes legato to become disabled on the preset I am using (changes the preset from Mono to Poly in GeoShred). Fortunately, GeoShred lets me block specific CCs, but this ability to block is unusual for an audio unit.

Is it possible to turn off or control the automatic sending of these CCs somehow? Unfortunately, these messages do not go via the MIDI Effect slot chain, otherwise I could block them using StreamByter. I thought I might be able to add my own CC 126 to override Mono mode via the controller menu, but I can only select up to 119.

Thanks.
Support
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Re: Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by Support »

MTS doesn't send poly or mono mode messages.

CC 127 is 'All Notes Off'. It does send that. Does GeoShred change mode in response to that message? That seems weird to me.


Giel Bremmers
MisplacedDevelopment
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by MisplacedDevelopment »

Hi Giel, I replaced GeoShred with MIDI Monitor in the Instrument slot and this is what it receives when Play is pressed:

https://imgur.com/a/df2qXhA

I think the first line is sending CC value zero for CC 120 (All Sound Off according to https://anotherproducer.com/online-tool ... i-cc-list/) to channel 16.
The second line I believe is CC value zero for CC 127, which in all the places I have checked is referred to as Poly mode.
The same is then done for the rest of the channels.

To diagnose the problem, I originally sent the MIDI out to AUM via a Virtual MIDI App connection. This shows a number of other controllers being sent, which I do not see with the MIDI Monitor when set as an Instrument in MTS:

https://imgur.com/a/Ba1YWHy
Support
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Re: Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by Support »

Oops, All Notes Off is CC123, not 127. MTS has been sending the wrong controller since early 2021 :oops:
Will fix that!

Sorry for the inconvenience.


Giel Bremmers
MisplacedDevelopment
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by MisplacedDevelopment »

Not a worry, I have a workaround and it can’t have been causing people too much bother! It might have contributed to a few unexpected GeoShred crashes though as it falls over sometimes when overloaded with incoming MIDI.

I was sure that at some point the Brightness, Pan etc CCs overrides were also sent to internal plugins but this investigation shows that they are only sent when sending MIDI out of MTS, which is good news. Is there any way to tell MTS not to transmit this data as it does overwrite whatever is set in the destination plugin. For example, if I manually set up the pan/volume/expression in the app KQ Sampei hosted in AUM then connect MTS to it and start playing, the knob values are reset to the MTS defaults, even though I did not actively choose values for those controllers in my MTS project. The expectation I have as a user is that unless I manually add a controller data point then no controller data should be sent and the plugin should continue to use whatever it is currently set to.

I understand the need for the note/sound reset type of CCs to make sure the plugin starts in a known state, but some of the others will in many cases affect the way the destination plugin sounds or behaves when driven by MTS versus other MIDI generators. I also understand how changing such behaviour at this stage has the potential to break people who have come to rely on it, but it would be good to be able to have some mechanism available to disable that behaviour.

Thanks.
Support
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:17 pm

Re: Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by Support »

MisplacedDevelopment wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:44 pmI was sure that at some point the Brightness, Pan etc CCs overrides were also sent to internal plugins
Yeah, that was changed some time ago.
MisplacedDevelopment wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:44 pm For example, if I manually set up the pan/volume/expression in the app KQ Sampei hosted in AUM then connect MTS to it and start playing, the knob values are reset to the MTS defaults, even though I did not actively choose values for those controllers in my MTS project. The expectation I have as a user is that unless I manually add a controller data point then no controller data should be sent and the plugin should continue to use whatever it is currently set to.
Well, you do set most of these controllers in MTS, without realizing it: volume and pan are used by the track fader and pan knob for example. There's a Brightness knob in the External MIDI Instrument window etc.

I see your point, but I don't see an obvious solution. Having external MIDI tracks which look just like audio tracks (with fader and pan) is a rather fundamental feature of the program.


Giel Bremmers
MisplacedDevelopment
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Possible to disable automatically sent CC's?

Post by MisplacedDevelopment »

Support wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:38 pm
MisplacedDevelopment wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:44 pmI was sure that at some point the Brightness, Pan etc CCs overrides were also sent to internal plugins
Yeah, that was changed some time ago.
MisplacedDevelopment wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:44 pm For example, if I manually set up the pan/volume/expression in the app KQ Sampei hosted in AUM then connect MTS to it and start playing, the knob values are reset to the MTS defaults, even though I did not actively choose values for those controllers in my MTS project. The expectation I have as a user is that unless I manually add a controller data point then no controller data should be sent and the plugin should continue to use whatever it is currently set to.
Well, you do set most of these controllers in MTS, without realizing it: volume and pan are used by the track fader and pan knob for example. There's a Brightness knob in the External MIDI Instrument window etc.

I see your point, but I don't see an obvious solution. Having external MIDI tracks which look just like audio tracks (with fader and pan) is a rather fundamental feature of the program.


Giel Bremmers
I had not understood that the intention was to allow MTS widget settings to take priority over those in the destination. With that knowledge the behaviour makes more sense to me.

I can work around it if needed by routing through StreamByter in AUM to filter out the CC’s I don’t want to reach the destination plugin. I am hoping that I won’t need to do this and the plugins I am using in this project behave reliably enough to leave hosted within MTS!

Thanks for taking the time to explain on a Sunday.
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